(no subject)

[yagathai]

What's this? More More RaceFail ranting? Ah, yes, it certainly is.

For the record, I agree with shweta_narayan more than I agree with Ottinger's original (and now redacted) post. That being said, in discussing the issue with tithenai, I became aware of a couple of things that really bothered me.

First of all, the relentlessly sarcastic tone of Shweta's post really didn't help things at all. In a debate in which the lines are clear and pre-drawn, hostile and vitriolic exchanges never serve to change the minds of the undecided and only retrench the position of the opposition. Essentially it's really only preaching to the choir.

Further, while Ottinger did back down in this case, in general when the proponents of one side of an argument are stigmatized and stereotyped by the other side as shrill and perpetually outraged professional victims who harness a self-righteous martyrdom as a means of garnering support through sympathy in an effort to stifle reasoned dissent*, it really doesn't help any to play into the stereotype by being, well, self-righteous and hostile. Even if that attitude is justified, it's only going to energize the opposition's base.

I'm not saying Shweta shouldn't have reacted however she liked, of course. I'm just saying that her reaction, phrased as it was, really isn't helpful to the debate at large, and I wish it was more so, seeing as I largely agree with her and wish more people would do the same.**

But there was another thing that came up in the course of my conversation with Amal that bothered me. If you were to hire me to assemble an anthology called "The Ten Best SF Stories Of All Time", it would be pretty even odds that every single one of those stories would be by a white guy (most of whom are old, many of whom are dead). I can think of maybe one or two stories that might, maybe, possibly elbow their way in to the bottom of that list by a non-white and/or non-dude if I was feeling particularly contrary after breakfast, but if I'm going to populate that antho honestly, well, there you have it. Monochromatic and single-sex.

It's not that I'm not widely read, and I certainly don't harbor any prejudices against fiction based on the author's genetic status. Nevertheless, my top ten list, an honest selection of what I think are the best stories the genre has to offer, judged by as close to an objective standard as you can get when classifying art, is by old white dudes.

Each story is a critical favorite, and taken on their own none of the stories would be an especially controversial choice (with one possible exception, Leiber's Space-Time for Springers, which I hold in much higher esteem than most genre fans). I mean, you can personally dislike A Rose for Ecclesiastes, but it's a credible choice for any top ten list. Ditto A Study in Emerald, Flatland and so on.

If I did this, selected the ten best stories in science fiction and published them in an anthology called that, I would be torn apart on the internet if they were all white dudes. Seriously. I'd get harangued and vilified like Colonel Sanders at a PETA rally, my name and reputation dragged through the mud. I would be strongly, strongly pressured into throwing in at least a token woman and/or ethnic minority, a Singing My Sister Down or The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas or Time Considered As A Helix of Semi-Precious Stones (all of which merit an entry in my top twenty-five, but not my top ten) if only to spare myself the social approbation.

That's... that's terrible, isn't it? That I'm feeling intimidated by the inevitable attacks on my character and the professional and personal repercussions, of what would be an honest expression of my judgement? That I would feel the urge to pander to a particularly angry, vocal segment of the fandom?

I think that maybe that's a sign of how this debate has crossed waaaaaay over the line of civility into the realm of shouting and insults. Problem is, I don't know what to do about it.


* In the interests of fairness, I should point out that each side of this argument is as guilty of vicious stereotyping as the other.
** Yes, I am a terrible hypocrite. So sue me.

Comments

[alanashinean.livejournal.com]

Space-Time for Springers is one of the greatest short stories ever written.

That is all.

[catvalente.livejournal.com]

I think it's enormously bizarre to say that your personal tastes are as close to objective analysis as one can get. Like it or not, you are a dude who is more likely to like stories by other dudes, and quite frankly, I think listing 10 stories that everyone agrees are the best is about as fun and useful as yet another movie list that starts with Citizen Kane.

I think classic SF stories quite often suck, but we're all told they're great, and if you already know your list without reading every story in the contemporary scene, then you cannot come close to saying it's an objective one. It's ALL about what you've been told and encultrated to like.

[yagathai.livejournal.com]

It's not the 10 Stories Mike Likes Most. It's 10 Best Stories, and of course it's going to be subjective -- but the difference between the two is the first I make no attempt to be objective, and in the second i do.

[addienfaemne.livejournal.com]

I think what yuki_onna is saying is that your attempt to be more objective still fails when considering how conditioned most of us are to consider White Dudely Lit canon.

[yagathai.livejournal.com]

No editorial selection is going to be wholly objective, though. I mean, there is no "canon" except by consensus, right?

[addienfaemne.livejournal.com]

Yes, and my argument is, even your "objective" view has been carefully conditioned by a bullshit paradigm about what's "important."

One of my favorite aspects of the English department at Penn is that they're making a very studied effort to unearth writing by women - writing that was actually rather popular or well-regarded in its time - but dismissed as "pap" by cultural gatekeepers. Sometimes they were right, but sometimes not.

[aghrivaine.livejournal.com]

while I take your point, and this is a fairly standard "Political correctness is ruining all sense of reason/logic/objectivity" essay - one thing I absolutely don't buy is that you would alter your choices for an anthology based on the fear of being vilified on the internet. Rather, I suspect you would fairly well revel in such a possibility.

[yagathai.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm not saying I'd knuckle under, but I'd definitely feel the pressure.

[aghrivaine.livejournal.com]

In the same way you feel the pressure when you're pleasuring yourself with a ziplock bag full of baby oil with Ayn Rand's portrait taped to it.

[addienfaemne.livejournal.com]

"In the same way you feel the pressure when you're pleasuring yourself with a ziplock bag full of baby oil with Ayn Rand's portrait taped to it."

No Ronald Reagan?

[yagathai.livejournal.com]

It's not pleasure, it's enlightened self-abuse.

[aghrivaine.livejournal.com]

Zing!

[dear-amaranth.livejournal.com]

Powerful image, that. The more so because it compels one to read it several times to fully understand it, and by that time it's entrenched and will never go away. Kudos.

[aghrivaine.livejournal.com]

I assure you, my ability to imagine these things is just as impossible to scour out of my brain, however much I might want to do so.

[terraprime.livejournal.com]

Let us not lose sight of the original complaint.

The anthology in question did not just contain the 10 best short stories in SF written. It actually commissioned some stories to be included, as well. That's three leaps and a trans-Atlantic flight away from what your hypothetical anthology is. So the two situations are not entirely comparable, and the imagined response to one should not be simply grafted onto the expected response from the other.

Second, I get what you're saying about the tone of voice adding to the negative emotional response for someone who already started reading the topic on the other side of the line, so to speak. I get that.

But consider this: this is not the first time that this person has had to explain, justify, and defend her position on the inclusiveness of SF/F literature. I think we're each one of us allowed some time to be fatigue over the constant, incessant, and rather repetitive job of expounding on this issue. I know that when I talk to people on gay issues, I used to worry a lot about whether I can convince them to "my side." After a while, I just got too tired to care. Somebody thinks that homosexuality is the same as pedophilia? Well, if I'm in a good mood, I'll engage, and if I'm not, I'll just mock and ridicule. At the end of the day, it's not my fucking job to get them to be better human beings. Yes, I know, to make headway, we have to get more people convinced and allied on our side. I really do know, and most of the time I try very hard not to call those stupid ignorant troglodytes for what they are to their ugly faces. Still, once in a while, I'm just so fucking tired and irked that I *still* have to convince someone that being gay is not the same as fucking dogs. You know?

Third, I think if your hypothetical anthology is about the 10 most influential SF short stories, you might have a chance of defending the absence of women (I'm more skeptical of the absence of PoC). I think if the criteria is "best written" or "most entertaining," I think it'd be odd to not see a single author deviating from the mold of the straight white men.

Finally, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to become suspicious of your own metrics of evaluation after someone else points out the possible blinders that you might have on in your selection process. If, after due consideration, you really do believe that the 10 best SF short stories do not have one that was written by someone other than a straight white man, then you can enumerate your reasoning and show others the steps you took in your evaluation. That way, people can see your deliberation and if your reasoning is sound and your evaluation subjective, others can see how you get to your conclusion without being affected by sexism or heterocentrism.

In essence, this is the same challenge for managers or college admissions offices: as long as they have an objective procedure that they follow and that the procedure is tested for absence of biases, then if the end result is the exclusion of minority, then they are not attacked as unfairly biased. The monkey wrench in this, two of them actually, is that literary criticism is difficult to set up objective standards for. The proliferation of argument amongst literary critics on one work or another is proof of that. And the second problem is that for some people, even these precautions are not enough. There'll always be a few who are indeed unreasonable in their expectations, and it's impossible to please them. As long as you start the process with a well-reasoned protocol that you strife to keep free of biases, then you can feel justified in your defense of the outcome. That's the best you can hope for.

[yagathai.livejournal.com]

Wait, what anthology in question? The mindblowing SF one? That's yesterday's news, pal.

[terraprime.livejournal.com]

Oh, my bad. I thought this was a continuation of that, given your example.

[yagathai.livejournal.com]

I mean, it's obviously an extension of the same topic, but there's no deliberate continuity between the two posts.

[addienfaemne.livejournal.com]

" After a while, I just got too tired to care. Somebody thinks that homosexuality is the same as pedophilia? Well, if I'm in a good mood, I'll engage, and if I'm not, I'll just mock and ridicule. At the end of the day, it's not my fucking job to get them to be better human beings. Yes, I know, to make headway, we have to get more people convinced and allied on our side. I really do know, and most of the time I try very hard not to call those stupid ignorant troglodytes for what they are to their ugly faces. Still, once in a while, I'm just so fucking tired and irked that I *still* have to convince someone that being gay is not the same as fucking dogs. You know? "

The sneakiest thing about oppression is that the oppressor expects the oppressed to educate them, when, by virtue of their oppression, they often lack the resources or the energy to do so.

Kyriarchy: it's a bitch!

[terraprime.livejournal.com]

Yes, that.

And it's more insidious than that, too, because now it's the responsibility of the minority to help the oppressor to change his/her ways. I've heard more than a few times from some anti-gay people saying "Well, if you're going to cal me names like bigots, then I am not going to listen to you and it's your loss, because now I won't support your cause."

Like, as if my pointed criticism of their world view is the causative agent for an oppressive regime against LBGT people? Puh-leese.

I know you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. But you know what? Shit does just as good a job as honey when it comes to catching flies. Just sayin'

[thelastmehina.livejournal.com]

What are your standards for "Best SF Story"?

[grumpymonkey.livejournal.com]

In a day and age where there are no gender- and race-specific awards, anthologies, college classes or awareness groups, I might agree with the idea that yor anthology is missing something if it doesn't include people of color or other genders. I really don't like having to exercise my white guilt every time I do something that might be in the public eye. If something is good, I don't give a damn who wrote, sang or performed it.

Y'ever seen anyone call a Top Ten of rap artists racists because the artists are predominantly black? No, because that form of expression has been historically dominated by artists who are black. Sci-Fi has historically been dominated by older white guys. In the modern era that's changing, but you can't change go back and insert black or female writers who weren't there. Up to a certain point most sports were dominated by whites, but in the last 30 years the complexion of modern professional sports has been very inclusive of people of color.

Except hockey. That's a total cracker sport. ;)

Anyway, don't bend to pressure, my man. If it's one of the ten best stories in your mind, do not exclude it in favor of something else because of pressure from some group or another. That way likes madness. You'll soon be bending to the pressure of left-handed midget (sorry, Little Person) Mormon writers because they feel excluded by the course of history.

[terraprime.livejournal.com]

Well, "historically dominated" is not the same as "absolutely no other alternatives."

I will have a hard time believing a selection of all-time best SF stories if it's missing Mary Shelley's Modern Prometheus, for instance.

[grumpymonkey.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree. I merely dislike the automatic accusation of sexism or racism because a particular list not including members of said gender or race. In a field dominated by one class of person, I am loath to SEEK members outside of the majority just to include members outside the majority. In the case of Shelley's tale, it stands strong regardless of the writer's gender and stands a good chance of making the list.

And to be fair, the definition of genre is just as subjective as the selection of those authors who have mastered it. "Modern Prometheus" could just as easily be omitted because it falls into the horror genre. If it wasn't on that particular list, I would assume it fell out of the genre definition before I thought the editor selecting the stories was a sexist. If it were left out of a HORROR anthology, I'd have more cause to suspect the inclinations of the editor.

In the end, my major concern is the very idea of subjectivity being diluted by the drive to be politically correct. It is hard enough to define and discuss the merits of creative works based on their content and the skill of execution without also being overly wary of accusations of bias based on traits other than the artist's talent and originality.

[terraprime.livejournal.com]

In the end, my major concern is the very idea of subjectivity being diluted by the drive to be politically correct. It is hard enough to define and discuss the merits of creative works based on their content and the skill of execution without also being overly wary of accusations of bias based on traits other than the artist's talent and originality.

I get what you're saying.

Let me, however, raise the point that a healthy does of weariness is not a bad thing. Unconscious biases is not a PC term - it is a demonstrated human behavioral trait born out of controlled sociological/psychological studies. Hiring committees who are reminded of the non-discrimination policies do better in not allowing unconscious biases seep through their decisions. Audition panels who cannot see the faces of the musicians during the audition included a lot more female musicians. This tells me that a good level of inward-directed criticism can go a long way in reducing the effects of unconscious biases in many decisions.

[yagathai.livejournal.com]

True enough, though it didn't make my top ten list because first of all it's not a short story.

[shellefly.livejournal.com]

Except hockey. That's a total cracker sport. ;)

Ray Emery says hi.
:*

[grumpymonkey.livejournal.com]

All one of him? ;)

[daveax.livejournal.com]

Yags, a parallel from the world of music...

Since the late 60's, I've been a fan of Taj Mahal. He's an incredibly talented multi-instrumentalist, with a expert knowledge of more musical styles than I can number. I've seen him in concert about a dozen times, and listened to many of his albums over the years.

About a year back, I picked up a 3-CD anthology of his work, covering almost all of his musical history (except for his time in his first band, the Rising Sons, where the other guitarist was Ry Cooder). And, one evening, I listened to it straight through...and ended up with a very bad taste in my mouth.

The music was fine. Good bands, good instrumentals, good arrangements. The material was excellent, covering (mostly) Black music of all varieties from the US, Africa, and various Caribbean islands.

What got me was this: on every song, his accent and vocal style changed to imitate the folks who originally did the material.

Now you could argue that this was his way of showing respect for the originators, or that he's a musical chameleon.

But, y'know, if a white musician did that, he'd be crucified right quick.

[yagathai.livejournal.com]

How is that any different than when Paul McCartney sings with an American accent?

[dressdragn.livejournal.com]

Ok so I keep meaning to sit down and write a thoughtful response but instead
I’m posting from my phone. But shit that can't be done on the way to
somewhere else doesn’t get done. Why are you so sensitive baby about this
baby? Are you harboring some kind of fear that as a gentleman of color (if
you even think of your self that way) that you will be less able to write
great genre fiction? If so then it's time to pull Linda Nochlin out of
mothballs.

The 10 ‘best’ sci-fi stories are written by old dead white guys because 90%
of everything written in English is written by old dead white guys. I bet if
you put together an anthology of the 10 worst stories it would be old dead
white dudes too. It isn't an implication that papery skinned wheezers write
better, they've just been at it longer.

It’s a numbers game, up until about the last 50 years there we’re few
opportunities for women/people of color to write and be taken seriously.
Think of the not so long ago struggles (1930sish) Virginia Woolf outlined in
a room of ones own. While our well seasoned educated ashen literary fathers
have been writing about dragons and shit since Beowulf, longer if you
include Greco-roman classical stuff which is the bedrock of snow beard
patriarch culture.

So there haven't been any great young female Native American libertarian
sci-fi authors, just like there haven't been any great Eskimo tennis
players. Crying about it doesn’t make it any less true. What fixes this is
if instead fighting on the Internet everyone puts down their pitchforks,
goes back to their desks and tries to write some great stories.

Let me be the first to point out my own hypocrisy and say that I
routinely drop a couple of upermid level white/Asian cosplayers from photo
sets to make room for darker skinned lower-mid level ones because I think it
is both more interesting to look at and because I think that positive
depictions of cosplayers of color are good for the community. But whatever I
don't even pretend that the features are anything other then me saying here
are some images I like. In parallel, maybe an anthology stretched a little
to include some less conventional choices might be a more interesting read.

Anyway, the idea of a definitive list of the best of anything subjective is
sort of a suspect idea anyway. If you can’t hold a ruler up to it then some
ones going to feel slighted.

Enough of this tinny keyboard and autocompleete,

-Anna

[kylecassidy.livejournal.com]

I think you aptly list the hazards of calling something "all time ten best" anything because, as you point out, there are lots of very good works that could all swap places with one another and still be a credible "ten best". However, if you were to put together a book of ten incontrovertably awesome steampunk stories Isaac Asimov would have nary a tale in it, nor Arthur C. Clarke, but Cherie Priest might and when that happens enough and the panels at SF conventions stop looking like a gathering of wizards other people are going to write the next chapter in the book of SF and in 50 years you may very well be able to put together a "10 best SF stories" anthology that includes no white men with beards.

ultimately though, you're paying for an editors taste, buy the anthology by the person whose judgement you trust, some will sell, some won't and the market will out in the end. i'd say go ahead and put out the anthology of ten best stories written by old white guys, but it's been done, we've got all those stories.